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In today’s episode, we help Evan overcome her fear of charging for her products.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Jocelyn Sams: Hey y’all! On today’s podcast we help Evan overcome her fear of charging for her products.
Shane Sams: Welcome to the Flipped Lifestyle podcast, where life always comes before work. We’re your hosts, Shane and Jocelyn Sams. We’re a real family that figured out how to make our entire living online, and now we help other families do the same. Are you ready to flip your life? All right, let’s get started.
Shane Sams: What’s going on everybody, welcome back to the Flipped Lifestyle podcast. It is great to be back with you again today. Super excited, super pumped, cannot wait to talk to another member of the Flip Your Life community today about growing and building their online business so that they can find the freedom they want in their life. Our guest today is Evan Garrapy. Evan, welcome to the show.
Evan Garrapy: Thank you, I’m so excited to be here.
Shane Sams: We already changed Evan’s life before the show even started. Because I asked Evan before we got going, I said, “How do you say your last name?” And she said, “It’s really hard, it’s Garrapy.” And I said, “Oh, it’s like therapy, but Garrapy.” And she’s like, “I’ve never thought of that!”
Evan Garrapy: So helpful.
Jocelyn Sams: Yes, we’ll send you our bill for that later, right.
Shane Sams: Exactly. That was worth the call, worth the call.
Jocelyn Sams: All right, well we are very, very happy to have you on the show today, and I’m really, really interested in what you do. So let’s talk a little bit about that. Tell us about you, your background, and about the website that you started.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah. In 2007, after my grandmother passed away, my dad’s mom, I got really interested in researching family history, because I realized there were so many things I wanted to ask her, and I would never get the chance to. And one of them was about her German heritage that she was really proud of. And I just felt like, I didn’t write anything down, I didn’t ask her questions, so I scraped up enough money to buy an Ancestry.com account, and I taught myself over the next, what is it now, 2007, 12 years I guess, how to trace my family online. And I’ve learned a lot, so I started a website to teach other people how to do the same thing.
Shane Sams: That’s amazing that you say that, and I want to dig deeper into your background too, like what you do outside of the online world. But I have tried to do the Ancestry.com thing, because I’m kind of like … Everyone thinks, because we work online, that we know everything about computers, and every website.
Jocelyn Sams: False.
Shane Sams: This was false. So my mom one time, we got one of those DNA kits, and my dad got one. I tried to get on there and figure out how to start … In the commercial it’s like, “I clicked the leaf and I knew that Alexander Hamilton was my second cousin.” That’s so stupid because that is not how it works.
Evan Garrapy: Not quite.
Shane Sams: Once you get in it, you just get overwhelmed and confused. I couldn’t figure it out, I gave up. I tapped out. So that’s what you kind of do, right?
Evan Garrapy: Exactly. I kind of compare it to that last scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark, where they’re in that big … The warehouse with all the crates. All the answers are in that big warehouse, but you would never know where to look unless you already knew where they are. So I just kind of teach people how to navigate the warehouse.
Shane Sams: That’s amazing. That just shows … We were talking off air about how, I’m like, “No one’s ever done anything like this. This is an amazing niche.” If you just keep figuring out things that you’ve figured out how to do, you will eventually figure out how to start an online business. It’s just going to happen.
Shane Sams: Tell us more about your background too, like what’s your actual background, what do you do for a living? What led, what’s the nutshell version of how you ended up where you are today?
Evan Garrapy: I am technically an attorney. I don’t always like to admit it but yes, I’m a lawyer. I realized pretty quickly out of law school that it was probably not a good fit for me, and I was really bummed out, because you obviously spend a lot of time, a lot of money, blood, sweat and tears to become an attorney, only to realize, whoops, I made a mistake. But at that point it’s not easy to switch because of all the money and time, and all of your experiences in this one area. But my mom heard you guys on a podcast, and I want to say, was that on Dave Ramsey? Were you all on there? Were you on that one?
Shane Sams: I don’t think so. Maybe somebody talked-
Evan Garrapy: You were on something that my mom heard. She even told me about you guys.
Shane Sams: Maybe somebody talked about us on Dave Ramsey. We need to look that up and see if it actually happened.
Evan Garrapy: It was something my mom heard, and I looked you guys up, and I started listening to your podcast from the beginning. And truly, this sounds so sad, but I was so miserable that I would cry on the way to work. But I would listen to you guys, and it made me feel better. Like I had hope there was something I could do eventually.
Shane Sams: Wow.
Jocelyn Sams: Good, that makes me feel better.
Shane Sams: I thought you were crying because of it.
Evan Garrapy: No.
Shane Sams: Like “It made me cry, you all were so mean.”
Jocelyn Sams: I know, I was like, no one has ever cried over our podcast before.
Shane Sams: What you’re saying is, you hated going to work, but this gave you hope that yes, there is something else.
Evan Garrapy: It did. I probably said that in a weird way, but it was some of the only hope I felt like I had. I really was down, I was like, I ruined my life. That sounds so dramatic, but I really just didn’t know what I was going to do. Listening to you guys gave me an out, and I’ve just been kind of slowly working at it in bits and pieces, and started to take it really seriously, just this year.
Shane Sams: Awesome. That’s why we do this show though, honestly, because I was there. I hated going to work. I had no hope after some horrible things that happened to us, or to me specifically, at work, and I was looking for something different. Because I felt the same way, like I went to college for this, I went to two Master’s degree programs to be a teacher, and a coach, and coach football.
Jocelyn Sams: And that’s not even anywhere near what Evan’s done.
Shane Sams: Near what you did. And I had been teaching for nine years, so to even think about switching was overwhelming, you know what I’m saying.
Jocelyn Sams: Yeah, and so many of the people listening right now, there may be somebody listening in their car right now thinking, “Oh my goodness, this is me.”
Evan Garrapy: Yeah.
Jocelyn Sams: So I’m just so glad that you’ve taken the next steps, and you’re trying to overcome that.
Shane Sams: You said something really interesting there, I kind of wrote a note here as you were telling your story. You said you figured it out after you got out of law school, right. So what pushed you into law school? Did other people say, “You should be a lawyer, because doctors and lawyers make money”? What even pushed you down that path in the first place?
Evan Garrapy: People did say, they always said I should go to law school. Common thinking for a long time was, “You’re a great writer,” or, “You kind of like to argue,” which I don’t actually that much, “And so you should go to law school.” And honestly, being a lawyer isn’t about writing, and I don’t like confrontation, so not a good fit for me
Shane Sams: Yeah. It’s so funny though, how we get-
Evan Garrapy: And I did think I could make good money.
Shane Sams: It’s so funny how we get those things in our head though, right. Like one person, one time, says, “You should be a lawyer,” and you’re like, “Yeah, I’m so lost in my life, and I have no clue what I want to do, so I’ll do that.” And then you get to the end of it and you’re like, “That is not what I should’ve done seven years ago, what the world told me to do.”
Jocelyn Sams: That’s what I did in high school. I was in the FBLA. I won an award at a competition about computers, because you know, nerd. But anyway, I was like, “I’ll be in business and do something with computers.”
Shane Sams: So she went to be a computer programmer and all this stuff, and then just wank, opposite direction.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah, absolutely.
Shane Sams: It’s just so funny how common that story is, that we find almost everyone seems to come into the community like, “I thought this, someone told me this, so I did that, and now I don’t want this any more.” That is such a common story, of everybody really.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah.
Shane Sams: Because none of us know what we’re doing in our 20s. We’re just kind of like, “Well my advisor said,” or “My mom said,” or “My dad said,” and then we end up looking up going, “I wish I had looked in the mirror and said, what do you say?”
Evan Garrapy: Exactly.
Shane Sams: But you get a do-over now, you can do what you want. You totally have that freedom.
Evan Garrapy: I do. Like you said, I am grateful I went to law school, because I met my husband there, so I need to put that in, but I should’ve thought more about what day to day life is like as a lawyer.
Shane Sams: What kind of law do you do?
Evan Garrapy: Right now I’m doing consumer bankruptcy law. Chapter 7, Chapter 13.
Shane Sams: So it’s all positive and sunshine and rainbows, it sounds like.
Evan Garrapy: There’s happy people, nobody’s ever crying at all, not stressful at all.
Shane Sams: Yeah, I know. Well let’s do what we can to change the narrative and get you away from bankruptcies.
Jocelyn Sams: So you wanted to be an attorney, right.
Shane Sams: So you wanted to be an attorney. Although attorneys do have a good racket. We were talking off air about, lawyers do make crazy money. Because we have this trademark attorney, and if I look at his email in my inbox he charges me somehow. He’s got like a retina scanner. “You looked at the email, that’ll be $5.95.” “What?” And if I email him I get a bill right back, it’s like $39.24. It’s just so silly, it’s like they charge by the letter or something like that.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah. Certain types of attorneys can definitely get away with that kind of thing. I’ll tell you, my local county prosecutor job though, I think they were offering maybe starting at 38 a year. Which after law school is not that much money, with the loan.
Shane Sams: That’s for sure. That’s like your monthly payment on your law school loan.
Evan Garrapy: Exactly.
Shane Sams: Right, exactly. So tell us a little bit more then. We know why you want to get away from that job, but what are the positive benefits that you see? Like if you can get this online business off the ground, flip the script, and change your life, what are the benefits you’re wanting to get out of your online business?
Evan Garrapy: I want to build something that I can really be proud of. Everyone’s actually impressed when you say you’re a lawyer, but I’m not that proud of it. Not to sound bad, but I really want to build something that helps people, that I can be proud of and have freedom over my life. I’m kind of freedom-obsessed. It makes me feel really panicky thinking about someone else being in charge of my time.
Shane Sams: Me too. It drives me insane. It gets to a point where … I drive Jocelyn crazy because she likes schedules, but I don’t even like appointments.
Evan Garrapy: Me too, I know.
Shane Sams: Other than these podcasts, no appointments. You’re not allowed to get on my calendar for any reason.
Jocelyn Sams: And I love appointments.
Shane Sams: Jocelyn loves appointments.
Jocelyn Sams: As many appointments as possible.
Shane Sams: She likes her rigid schedule.
Evan Garrapy: I’m the same. My husband is the Jocelyn in our relationship.
Jocelyn Sams: And speaking of which, speaking of charging people for stuff, I always say that I’m going to charge people for wasting my time. So if I come to the doctor’s office, and I sit there for an hour, I’m going to send them a bill for my time.
Shane Sams: That’s amazing.
Evan Garrapy: I want to do that too.
Shane Sams: And this is a really … To piggyback off of that, what a worthy thing, to be able to make sure that people can find out who they are, where they came from, and complete their story.
Evan Garrapy: Yes.
Shane Sams: Or even think ahead to the place where it’s like, “I wish I had asked all those questions.” Well now we can make sure those questions get answered and exist before it’s too late.
Evan Garrapy: Exactly. It just fills you with a sense of pride. If you go back far enough, really we’re pretty much all related. So it makes you think of the world in just a totally different way.
Jocelyn Sams: Yeah, exactly.
Shane Sams: That’s amazing. that’s an awesome mission.
Jocelyn Sams: So I’m actually a little bit obsessed with your business topic right now, and I’ll tell you why. And I’ve mentioned this on the show before, but I’m a true crime nut.
Evan Garrapy: Oh yeah.
Jocelyn Sams: I love listening to True Crime podcast, and one of the things, I know this is really kind of weird, but anyway-
Shane Sams: I think Jocelyn is planning her exit strategy. I’m just saying. She’s listening to all these crime things like, “That’s how that guy got away with it, hmm.”
Jocelyn Sams: It does look a little suspicious. If something happens to you, it will-
Shane Sams: Her computer searches are putting her in jail if anything ever happens to me, I’m telling you.
Jocelyn Sams: That is not true. But I do like to look up information about serial killers and things like that. Anyway, the reason that I’m really obsessed with this ancestry information is because one of the cases that I follow, actually many of the cases that I follow, have been solved using DNA, by people’s family members who have submitted their information to police databases and stuff. So anyway, that got me thinking, “I don’t really know that much about my family. So anyway, murder shows have gotten me thinking how I need to know more about my extended family.
Shane Sams: Right, so she’s been researching.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah, I know the case you’re talking about I think.
Shane Sams: So you may have a customer, not just a coach, on this call.
Evan Garrapy: Great, perfect.
Shane Sams: I’m just saying, she maybe joining you.
Jocelyn Sams: Let’s jump into, what do you have so far? What does your site look like, do you have anything for sale yet?
Evan Garrapy: I don’t have anything for sale, but I have a blog with probably, I don’t think there’s even 20 posts I think. I have an opt-in set up with a free e-book. I have a small social media following and a YouTube channel, and I have a mailing list with about 60 people on it.
Shane Sams: That’s awesome though.
Jocelyn Sams: That’s a great start.
Shane Sams: When did you start that actual blog?
Evan Garrapy: I started the blog last year, but I didn’t do much with it, just a few posts. Then this year, really only getting serious in January, even having a mailing list. So it’s only been a few months.
Shane Sams: Sure. How many people do follow you on social?
Evan Garrapy: Instagram is a big one, that’s like, well for me big, 500-something.
Shane Sams: That’s awesome. Okay. I might need to-
Evan Garrapy: I really like Instagram, and people love pictures with their genealogies, so it’s a good format for that.
Shane Sams: For sure. What about YouTube? Do you have any subscriber base?
Evan Garrapy: I think 16, but I only have four videos, and one of them is 1,300 views.
Shane Sams: Oh wow, that’s good. What was it about?
Evan Garrapy: I did a video comparing the different options for family tree software. It’s something you host on your own computer, just like any software that you track your own family tree.
Shane Sams: Got you.
Jocelyn Sams: Yeah, I love that.
Shane Sams: You could even do something like, it would be neat to have a video comparing, what’s it called, 23andMe and Ancestry.com, the big players, or something like that.
Evan Garrapy: Yes. I do want to do that. In fact my dad just did an ancestry DNA test, and I’m going to actually use his results and try to compare.
Shane Sams: Yeah, document the whole thing. Yes, document the whole thing. And right now you do not have an actual product created though, right? Or you do?
Evan Garrapy: I don’t have it up for sale. I’ve done the first part of a course that I wanted to release.
Shane Sams: Got you, okay.
Evan Garrapy: It’s about a 40 minute video.
Shane Sams: Awesome.
Evan Garrapy: You’re in good shape.
Shane Sams: Good shape, yeah. So basically we’re just, right now you kind of … It’s a little backwards, because you really want to get the product done first before you start blogging stuff.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah.
Shane Sams: But it’s okay, you caught it early enough where you’re like, “I need something to sell.”
Evan Garrapy: Right.
Shane Sams: And you have an email list offer that’s actually converting. Because to get 60 emails off of 15 to 20 blog posts in such a short amount of time is a really good indicator.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah, I’m excited.
Shane Sams: Like to pick up 500 Instagram followers, even to get views on YouTube, that’s all really, signs point to yes, that you’re moving in the right direction.
Evan Garrapy: I’m excited about that.
Shane Sams: So basically, infrastructure wise, you kind of are doing this. Now let me ask you a quick followup question. You said you did a video about comparing the software. Is your product just how to research, or does it focus on something, like Ancestry.com, like how to use Ancestry.com?
Evan Garrapy: How to research is basically telling people how to use each of these websites, because they’re these big databases, but there’s not really great instructions on how to use them. So I do different posts and courses about each one, because people have different preferences of what they like.
Shane Sams: Exactly. So you might have in your membership, you might say, “Here’s the Ancestry.com, how to use it course.”
Evan Garrapy: Exactly.
Shane Sams: “Here’s the 23andMe course. Here’s this other software that you can manage by your …” I’m sure there’s more of these out there, right?
Evan Garrapy: That’s the part one course I’ve done, is a course on how to use FamilySearch.org, which is like Ancestry.com but it’s free.
Shane Sams: Oh, that’s interesting. Do they have DNA and all that stuff, or no?
Evan Garrapy: It doesn’t offer DNA, but they have just as many sources as Ancestry.com.
Shane Sams: Got you.
Evan Garrapy: And it’s completely free to use, so I just wanted to teach people how to use it.
Shane Sams: Oh wow, that’s amazing.
Evan Garrapy: I almost prefer it.
Shane Sams: Awesome. So your course could even show people how to do this from that. So it’s like, you don’t have to convince people to buy these softwares, you’re like, “No, there’s a free one. Just come here, let me show you how to do it.”
Evan Garrapy: Exactly.
Shane Sams: That’s a powerful way to train people, is if you can get them in … We had a guy on the podcast … Gosh, it’s like four years ago. But he taught people how to go to Disney for free by credit card points.
Evan Garrapy: Wow, that’s awesome.
Shane Sams: Yeah, he didn’t have to sell anything though, he just had to get them to sign up for the cards. And then he showed them a free course how to use it, or he sold them a course how to do that. So it wasn’t like he had to sell them anything, he just had to convince them to do it. And that’s kind of like what you’re doing too.
Evan Garrapy: Exactly. Yeah.
Jocelyn Sams: The only kind of red flag for me is showing people nuts and bolts of how to use software, because they change things a lot.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah.
Jocelyn Sams: So I’m wondering if maybe we can find a way to make it more evergreen.
Shane Sams: Yeah. It would be nice if there was a course that was like, “Here’s the general thing how to do this, forget what software you’re using. Here’s the things you have to search for.” And then also, you had the individual ones that you could update later, but you at least had the core thing that was like, “These are the first five steps to researching your genealogy, period.” you know what I’m saying?
Evan Garrapy: Yeah. I think that’s what I’ve done with the blog posts. There’s a difference between the software, which is just where you store your information, and the websites, where you can actually research.
Shane Sams: Got you.
Evan Garrapy: So that’s why I was doing it more specific. And the websites don’t change that much, which is why I was going to do the courses on those. Because that’s just research, and that’s like going to the library.
Shane Sams: Exactly. If you’re going to go that route, I’ve got to buddy that does a … His name’s Joe, and he has this website called Learn Scrivener Fast. And he teaches this-
Evan Garrapy: Oh yeah.
Shane Sams: He’s a buddy, that’s a friend of mine. Anyway, he does this piece of software that changes every once in a while. But he just puts it into his promotional calendar and he’s like, “No, it’s awesome. When they change something, I get to promote that I made a video on how to do the change.” So it’s almost like a new excuse to sell things to people. you know what I’m saying?
Evan Garrapy: Yeah, that’s been a good way for me to think of content too.
Shane Sams: Exactly.
Jocelyn Sams: So you have a great start, and you have some people interested, you have some content going on, you’re on social media, you’re doing a lot of things right, which is awesome. But tell us something that is holding you back. Maybe it’s like a fear, maybe it’s a mindset issue, that is just kind of slowing you down a little bit.
Evan Garrapy: Fear of charging people, which I know is really common, which is probably why I’ve been blogging and making content, and not jumping into creating a product. Because I’m kind of procrastinating, jumping in and charging people.
Shane Sams: Why are you afraid to charge people? What are you afraid they’re going to do?
Evan Garrapy: I’m not afraid to charge people, I don’t like … Like I said, I don’t really like conflict, I don’t want to deal with people saying, “How dare you charge for this,” potentially. I know I just need to get over it, but …
Shane Sams: You’re a lawyer. You should be the most used to this. Lawyers charge for … We’ve already talked about this. Lawyers charge for everything, you know what I’m saying. Have you had negative experiences like that though, as a lawyer? For example-
Evan Garrapy: Oh, every lawyer. Every lawyer. Yeah, they think everything should be free.
Shane Sams: Because you’re a bankruptcy lawyer. You’re literally charging people to go bankrupt. That’s what bankruptcy … you know what I’m saying? Think about that. “Hi, I’m bankrupt.” “All right, that’ll be $500 to file your bankruptcy.” “No, I’m bankrupt, you don’t get it!” So maybe you’re just scarred from being …
Evan Garrapy: I probably am. Being a lawyer is very scarring. Not to sound dramatic again, but …
Shane Sams: It gets the mindest in. This is common though. I don’t know why it is that we all are like … Maybe it’s just because we know so much about the thing, we think, why would anyone pay for this? Like you’ve been so deep down the ancestry research model, you know every nook and cranny that someone’s birth certificate could hide around. So it’s like, why would I even pay for this, why should I charge for this?
Evan Garrapy: Right.
Jocelyn Sams: And there are other people out there, like me, who are listening to crime podcast, and think hey, I need to know more about my family. Like I’ve heard of a couple of ancestry websites, but I don’t know anything about it. And so I think sometimes what happens is that people like you, who are researchers most likely, and this is the way that I am too, I like to research things. I like to go and figure out what all is going on. And I think that you assume that other people already know the same things that you know. Is that part of it, do you think?
Evan Garrapy: Yeah, I don’t want people to say, “This is obvious. Why would you charge anyone for this?” Because I’ve been doing it so long, I just think of it as being obvious.
Shane Sams: It is obvious, but it’s almost like disconnecting the price from you. We talked to someone else about this on a podcast a couple weeks ago. You’re not really charging people for you, you’re not even really charging people for the answer, you’re charging people for a shortcut. It’s almost like a toll road. Like if a toll road will get you there in five minutes but traffic takes you two hours, you’re going to pay to go on a toll road, because it’s quicker.
Evan Garrapy: Right, definitely.
Shane Sams: Yeah, that’s what we’re really charging for. I say this all the time, and I say it to anybody in the community or out of the community. We have 55 total videos or something like that inside of the Flip Your Life Blueprint, our course area. You could probably find every bit of that information somewhere online, but it will not be in order, it will not tell you to this, then this, then this, you’re going to spend countless hours of frustration in your life trying to figure it all out. Or, you just get on the fast ramp. We’re like the fast pass line at Disney. You can go wait in line for three hours for the flight of passage, or you can go over here and get in the fast pass line and just jump on the ride.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah, so true.
Shane Sams: That’s what you’re really charging for. So don’t even think about it as, you’re charging them, or that you’re charging them for your content. You’re giving them the thing they want as fast as possible.
Shane Sams: For example, let’s go back to your original inspiration for this business. Grandmother passed away. You wished you had known more about her German heritage.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah.
Shane Sams: Someone else is sitting there right now, and they’re looking at their grandparent, and they’re like “Man, they could be gone, and if I don’t get this done now and figure this out, they may not even know where they come from.” So at that point it’s a matter of hurrying and getting people to get to where they need to be faster, and you’re helping them do that. It’s kind of like a mission then, and not a business. Like “I have to get people to do this, so that they can get there faster.” And if you can tie your pricing to that result and to that mission, it removes you from it. You don’t have to feel bad about it any more.
Jocelyn Sams: I just thought of an example for this. It reminds me of sort of a tour guide. So years ago, almost 15 years ago, when Shane and I got married, we went to Niagara Falls. Niagara Falls is a state park, you can go check it out by yourself, certainly there are a lot of different activities you can do there, but you can go and look at the falls by yourself. But instead we chose to do a tour, and we paid someone to take us around and tell us information.
Jocelyn Sams: Remember that crazy guy who said “Okie dokie” on the bus?
Shane Sams: “Okie dokie” everywhere we went. I do remember that. “Okie dokie, come on guys. Okie dokie, get on the boat.”
Jocelyn Sams: Yeah, and so we paid for that tour because we wanted somebody else’s expertise. We wanted them to know where to go. We didn’t want to have to wade through all the information, looking everything up on our own. we wanted someone just to take us to all the best places.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah.
Shane Sams: Yeah, we did this out in San Diego too one time. We’re total tourist nerds when we’re out traveling. But when we’re in a town, we want to see the most things that we can see as fast as possible, and we just can’t find it all by ourselves if we’re only going to be there for like two days. So we took a tour in San Diego and they took us all over the place, and we got to see the big mountain with the cross on top of it, we got to see Balboa park, all these other things.
Evan Garrapy: Wow.
Shane Sams: One time in New York, we were only there for a limited time because we were watching a basketball game, UK was playing Duke, and we said, “How can we tour the city as fast as possible?” So we got on a boat and they took us around the outside of Manhattan. And we just went around the island and they just pointed everything out to us.
Shane Sams: That’s what you’re doing. You’re like, “You don’t have time. You need to listen to me. Trust me, this is the best thing for you, and it is my mission to make sure that you don’t miss this moment with your family.” That’s what you charge for.
Evan Garrapy: That’s a really good way of putting it.
Shane Sams: It’s an obligation basically. You have to charge for this to get them there faster, or they won’t be able to do it.
Jocelyn Sams: And the thing that you have to remember too is that 90 to 95 out of 100 people are going to be like, “No, I don’t want that, I can find that for free online,” or, “I can figure it out.”
Evan Garrapy: Right.
Jocelyn Sams: You want to worry about the five to 10 people who are like, “Yeah, this is awesome, and I can’t wait for you to show me what you know.”
Shane Sams: I’ll tell you, this is the last thing I’ll say about pricing fears. Because this is really common. We had it, you have it, everybody listening at some point is going to be like, “I have to charge for something,” and you almost feel guilty about it.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah.
Shane Sams: Here’s what we’ve learned. We’ve probably had … I bet you that Jocelyn and I have had at least probably four to five thousand transactions over all of our businesses in the last so many years. Literally sold that many products to people. Like elementary librarian, history teacher, football coaching, Flipped Lifestyle, thousands of people have actually bought something from us. Over that same time we’ve actually helped some people. We’ve given them free resources, we’ve hooked them up because we felt bad for them because they had a really bad situation, whatever. And what we have learned is that 90% of the time, the people who pay, pay attention, and they will actually follow through. The people who go and get the freebee, they don’t, because they just don’t value it. So it’s almost like if you don’t charge them, they won’t take action and learn about their family.
Evan Garrapy: That’s true.
Shane Sams: If you just give it away for free, they’re just piddling, they’re not actually just trying. You actually help people when you charge them, because they give you their hard earned money, they will now take action and get the value out of the product you sold them. So just make sure you know that, that it’s actually good for people to pay for something.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah, definitely.
Jocelyn Sams: So that seems a little bit overwhelming. Do you think that that helped you?
Evan Garrapy: Definitely. I agree completely with what you’re saying. I know a little bit from being a lawyer. People who do free consultations, the people that don’t end up being good clients. But if you charge, even if it’s $5, to meet with someone, it ends up usually working out better.
Shane Sams: 100%, yeah, because both parties are invested, and they care about each other, you know what I’m saying. And they also care about getting the result that they’re both entering into the agreement for, so it makes more sense. We say this all the time too, every person we’ve ever given a free membership to Flip Your Life, for a hardship or anything, I can never think of one person that actually went … “Here, we will help you, we feel bad, do this, we’re trying to do something for you,” and they never follow through. So there came a point where we just said, “We’re not doing this any more.” People are going to be charged, or they’re not going to do it.
Evan Garrapy: Exactly.
Jocelyn Sams: So we’ve kind of talked a little bit about your fear. Now let’s talk about actual business strategies. What do you need help with right now?
Evan Garrapy: I think I know what you’re going to say, but I keep going back and forth with whether to start out with a course, and try to make it apply to as many people as I can, or do I have to do a membership right out of the gate?
Shane Sams: Well you know what we’re about to say.
Evan Garrapy: I know, that’s why I don’t even know why I asked. I bought the buddy boss theme, I’m ready to go.
Shane Sams: So she knows. Honestly though, that’s a good question. There’s very limited or rare chances that we will say just do a course. If you had 500,000 people following you for some reason, because you had something go viral, that actually does make sense to do. If you have a huge audience, like a massive audience, it can make a lot of sense to have like a $500 course, and go ahead and try and sell it. Because you can make a lot of money upfront really fast. But when you’re starting out with your own following that’s good, niche, you’ve got to few people following, you’ve got 500 people on Instagram, 60 people on a list, it makes a lot of sense to start the membership right away, because you can start recurring revenue. Like if you sell 20 of those people on that list right now at $50 a month for your help … And I’ll also tell you … You’ve been doing this since what, 2007? Studying your genealogy is not something you take a course and do it in a week.
Evan Garrapy: Right.
Shane Sams: It’s something that you basically get into and you do it forever. That’s a perfect membership model. “How do I do this? How do I go to the next level? How do I go deeper? How do I find this? I’m having trouble finding my great great great grandmother, where do I look?” They’re going to need that support that a membership can only provide. And if you sell 20 of them right away you’ve got $1,000 a month. You sell 20 more, you’ve got another $1,000. You start building an actual sustainable income right away.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah.
Shane Sams: So you could probably go ahead and just launch the membership straight away, and just sell it as a, “Let me help you research your family.” You can get the course inside to get started, and then every week I will do office hours where you can come and tell me where you’re stuck.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah.
Shane Sams: Or you could even design the course in a way like, “Month one on Ancestry.com, here’s what you’ve got to do. Month two …” Because you’ve got to go in and set all that stuff up, and make your links and your connections.
Evan Garrapy: Oh, yeah.
Shane Sams: So you could actually just set it up like a 12 month program, like “One year from now you will know everything that could ever be known about your family tree.” Right?
Evan Garrapy: Right.
Shane Sams: Then people get obsessed with it, they stay with it. And I’d say, like Jocelyn loves … Our personal assistant who works at our house, Jocelyn got her listening to crime podcasts, so that’s what she listens to while she’s working. And that’s all they talk about when they’re not talking about what’s going on around the house. I say these people will geek out together when they find some artifact of ancient yore or something like that, whatever. So it seems like a community would really bind together around this product.
Jocelyn Sams: I really don’t think that there’s a wrong answer to this question. If you want to create the course and then later create a community, I think that’s fine.
Shane Sams: This is one of the rare instances too, Jocelyn, where I think that you could sell both. Like sometimes we say don’t sell your courses outside of your membership, but like Jocelyn was saying, what if somebody really just wants the ancestry course, and they don’t really care about talking to anybody else?
Jocelyn Sams: Or if I just want to worksheet, or a little thing that shows me the best way to go about looking all the stuff up. I mean I might want to buy that, and I don’t really want to talk about it or anything.
Shane Sams: Yeah, exactly. So you could almost offer both. Like you could have, each individual platform could have its own course, but all of them could be in a membership if they wanted to come in.
Evan Garrapy: oh yeah.
Shane Sams: That’s where the people really geek out. Because I know people that are a member of all of them. Like, “I got my DNA for 23andMe and my Ancestry, I want to compare them.” Right, they get really into it.
Evan Garrapy: That’s how I am.
Shane Sams: Right, exactly, so if you exist, there are 105 other people somewhere like you. You just have to get them all to join your membership so you can help them geek out better.
Evan Garrapy: Yes exactly. I love that.
Shane Sams: How big is this audience? How many people actually use Ancestry.com or whatever?
Evan Garrapy: I think the last time I looked, they have either six or seven million members. And that’s a lot of people.
Shane Sams: See that’s amazing. That’s a lot of people. You only need like 100 of them, you know what I’m saying.
Evan Garrapy: I know.
Shane Sams: To replace your lawyer income it’s probably going to be a little more, but 200 people paying $50 a month is 120,000 a year. That’s a lot of money. Also too, when you can target a big … You can go into Facebook and probably target Ancestry.com followers. You could literally show people who’ve liked Ancestry.com’s Facebook page an ad that says, “I will teach you how to use Ancestry.com.” Then they go and they get the thing …
Evan Garrapy: Yeah, exactly.
Shane Sams: Have you ever thought about … I know you’re blogging, but have you ever thought about … Doesn’t this sound like Crime Junky Jocelyn? What if it was like a podcast where you interviewed someone who found a really great story from their history? you know what I’m saying, or you talked about these things-
Evan Garrapy: Oh, that’s a good idea.
Shane Sams: Or these things, like you could even read case studies of where people have discovered crazy things like that. It seems like this could be like a cool-
Evan Garrapy: It’s in the news now too, more and more.
Shane Sams: Oh yeah.
Jocelyn Sams: Yeah, for sure.
Evan Garrapy: With ancestry DNA in all the crimes that they’re solving.
Jocelyn Sams: Absolutely.
Shane Sams: You could do a conspiracy theory episode too, like, “Is the government really just using Ancestry.com to register my DNA?” I want to know that!
Evan Garrapy: I would love that!
Shane Sams: Tinfoil hat on, this is my tinfoil hat going on.
Evan Garrapy: My husband always calls me a conspiracy theorist, so he’s going to love when he hears this episode.
Shane Sams: That’s amazing. So basically, circle back around though, I always recommend that people think at least about how they could turn it into a membership in the beginning. Because small lists can make big income, if you have a recurring revenue model. Small lists do not make a big income when you’re just selling courses, I don’t care if they’re $1,000 a piece. Like if you’ve got 100 people you might make 10 grand, but what happens next?
Evan Garrapy: That’s it.
Shane Sams: So you’d rather find people, get them to join the thing, and get them to go.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah. So do you have an idea about what I should charge for something like that, like a membership course, for this idea?
Shane Sams: What does Ancestry.com charge? I know they have monthly product.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah, they have tiers, and it’s annually, or biannually, and I think the very cheapest one is like $150.
Shane Sams: A year?
Evan Garrapy: A year.
Shane Sams: A year?
Evan Garrapy: That’s a year, but it’s just for the library. Like it doesn’t teach you how to use it. It’s literally just an expensive library card.
Shane Sams: What’s their more middle tier option, or whatever?
Evan Garrapy: $200 or $250 a year I think.
Shane Sams: If you just think about it this way … Let’s say that middle tier is their best seller, which it usually is, that’s why it’s in the middle. If I divide 250 by 12, that kind of works out to like $20 a month. You see what I’m saying?
Evan Garrapy: Yeah.
Shane Sams: I think that’s probably a good starting place, only because you know people are paying for the access to the research for $20 a month. It only makes sense they’re willing to pay $20 a month for something. So it’s like, why not just charge what they’re already charging to teach them how to use the tool. Because the answer to that question is, how much are people willing to pay? Well we know they’re willing to pay about $20 a month. Let’s start there and then see how high we can push it, basically.
Evan Garrapy: Right, that makes sense.
Shane Sams: Yeah. Just let the market tell you, “Someone who’s interested in Ancestry.com information is willing to pay $20 a month, therefore they would probably be willing to pay $20 a month to learn how to use the stupid thing they already bought.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah.
Jocelyn Sams: All right Evan, it has been such a fun conversation today. I feel like we’ve just kind of scratched the surface, but unfortunately we are out of time. So we always ask our guest, what is one thing that you plan to take action on based on what we talked about today?
Evan Garrapy: I need to focus on finishing up the courses I already have in progress so that I can put them into my membership site and get that out for people, and start having that recurring income.
Shane Sams: All right, what an amazing action step. I know Evan’s going to get out there and take action and make that happen, and grow her online business. And we would love to help you grow your online business. So you heard an amazing idea for an online business today. Jocelyn and I, before the show started, said we’ve done hundreds of these episodes, and that is such a unique niche. You have a unique idea, you have a unique niche, that you can get into if you will just take action and make it happen.
Shane Sams: If you need help researching your idea, we have courses inside of the Flip Your Life community that can help you pick what you’re going to do online. All you have to do is go to FlippedLifestyle.com/FlipYourLife, and you can learn all about how you can join the Flip Your life community. We have plans starting for a little as $19 a month to get you all the coaching, community support, and content you need to get started. That’s FlippedLifestyle.com/FlipYourLife. We would love to see you inside.
Shane Sams: All right guys, that is all the time that we have for today, but we like to close every episode of the Flipped Lifestyle podcast with a Bible verse. Jocelyn and I get a jot of our inspiration, motivation, and business advice from the Bible, and normally we share a verse with you, but our guest Evan had a verse that she wanted to share with you today, so Evan, take it away.
Evan Garrapy: Yes, this is from Matthew Chapter 5, 14 to 16. It goes, “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden, nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lamp stand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” I picked that, and it goes back to what you said about having an obligation to using your talents to help people. So that’s what I try to do in my work, my online business.
Shane Sams: Ooh, I got chills. That’s a great Bible verse. That’s an awesome Bible verse, Evan. Thank you so much for sharing that.
Evan Garrapy: Yeah.
Shane Sams: All right guys, make sure you get out there, make sure you take action, make sure you let your light shine, and go out there and help the people that you were meant to help through your online business. Until next time, get out there and take action. Do whatever it takes to flip your life. We’ll see you next time.
Jocelyn Sams: Bye.
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